Religion, and what I feel about it.

Zera, since you seem like a pretty orthodox Catholic, are you against gay marriage?

What about the sending of Judas to the very depths of hell?

Toxicmaniac wrote:

Zeratul wrote:

Toxicmaniac wrote:

These are very interesting points blixt. But i don't agree with everything. You cannot blame religion for wars. I mean there are alot of wars thanks to religion but war is something thats inside us humans.

However the story of christianity disturbs me. I mean asked once this christian catholic the question. If i am a good person, i don't drink nor smoke nor be disrespectfull towards people yet i choose for not being a christian will i still go to hell. According to every single christian i asked that question they all said yes you will go to hell. And thats the main thing that disturbs me. I am against religion but not against religious people. Thats why i prefer mormonism if i was simple enough to actually believe in something like a religion.

I dont think you understand.Every person sins.It doesnt matter if we are talking about a charity donor or a serial killer.Both sin and therefore need to ask lord jesus christ to be their savior.You can only reach god through Jesus, and if you dont, you will go to hell.Dont get me wrong, god wants people not to sin and do terrible things, but as humans, we ALL sin.If a serial killer asks jesus for forgiveness, then he will be forgiven.If for example an athiest doesnt ask for frogiveness, how will his sins be forgiven?See my point?

So a serial killer and a pedophile just turns into a christian and POOF they go to heaven. An atheist that had a good life and was friendly goes to hell because he chooses not to be a christian. If so then your religion sucks and you should be ashamed for being a slave to that.

EDIT:my point is that you shouldn't put all sins together as the same. Genocide is a sin but its worse then swearing or stealing. yet you get the same punishment. That shows how horrible and misinformed your "god" actually is.

You really should read my post more carefully.

EVERY persons sins.By the time you die, you have probably sinned a billion times.Good person or not.So if you dont ask for forgiveness, those sins will wiegh down on you.If you ask for forgivness, you WILL be forgiven and your sins will be WASHED away.Being a good person doesnt mean you have not sinned, heck, you could be a man whos been praised all his life for being a good person, but even then, he has sinned millions to billions of times.Theses sins ADD up.

Ask yourself this, why would god let you into his house when you never beleived in him or his son, even when he has saved the human race?Why would he?You need to have a realtionship with god(more importantly Jesus) to be let into the house of god(heaven if you dont know).Saying god is horrible and misinformed is very immature and childish.It certainly doesnt give you credibility.One thing I hate about alot of athiests I see on here(alot, not saying all) is that they stick with insults instead of civily debating and respecting both sides.TRF is one of the few I have seen on here who actually seems civil about this all, even when hes hearing that his beleifs arent real(nobody likes being told that their beleifs are false).This is something I respect about TRF.

This is just a personal oppinion about athiesm, but I find it depressing.Atgiest logic is that when you die, you will not see any of you loved ones who have passed away, or anything in general.Its depressing to think that your life was just one of the billions in the world and most likely didnt accomplish anything world affecting.When my parents die, I would be mortified to think I would never see them again.But this is just a personal oppinion of mine, not something I usually would use in a religion debate

^^

So you believe in religion out of fear? That's what I got from your last couple of sentences.

Also, answer my fucking questions.

On another note, confession only works if you admit everything to the priest. Rape, murder, masturbation, pornography, etc. must all be admitted to the priest in order for you to be absolved of all your sins.

Also, according to the Bible, God is one of the worst things ever. He destroyed the world because he got pissed off (He's God. He's perfect. He doesn't get pissed off.). Moses quotes him as saying that he is an extremely jealous God and will banish you straight to the fires of hell if you believe in other gods other than him.

By this being said, it does not matter if you are a good person or not. If you don't believe in him, he'll be jealous and send you to hell. End of.

Sonji wrote:

^^

So you believe in religion out of fear? That's what I got from your last couple of sentences.

Also, answer my fucking questions.

On another note, confession only works if you admit everything to the priest. Rape, murder, masturbation, pornography, etc. must all be admitted to the priest in order for you to be absolved of all your sins.

Also, according to the Bible, God is one of the worst things ever. He destroyed the world because he got pissed off (He's God. He's perfect. He doesn't get pissed off.). Moses quotes him as saying that he is an extremely jealous God and will banish you straight to the fires of hell if you believe in other gods other than him.

By this being said, it does not matter if you are a good person or not. If you don't believe in him, he'll be jealous and send you to hell. End of.

No, thats why I said it was just a depressing thought for me, im not saying you should be religious out of fear.Im sorry if it sounded like that I was christain out of fear.

Sorry, i didnt see the question.No, im Protestant, not Catholic.Gay marriage has always been a topic that ive never been completly sure about.Do I think it should be allowed?No.That being said, if it is allowed, im not going to be mad or dissapointed about it.It doesnt really matter to me very much.My brother is gay so if it makes him happy, then im not going to oppose it.

Please tell me your kidding.You dont have to admit anything to anyone BUT god.From my knowledge, any preist who says what you just said is corrupt.But if that is what catholics do, then thats another reason why im not catholic.

You should read the bible, not hear what athiests on the web say.God has destroyed evil, not because god himself is evil or corrupt or jealous.He has destroyed the world because the people on it were terrible.I remember a story when god destroyed a city full of corrupt people by turning them all into salt(he actually guided and saved the only family worth saving out of the city before its destruction).He did not do this out of jealous or evilness.God is in no way evil.

I love how you call it jealousy, when its truly not.

This is what I'm gathering about God based on your posts, Zera: God is egotistical and self-centered and doesn't actually care about good or evil. He's willing to let a serial killer into heaven so long as he acknowledges his existence, but won't let a kind atheist into heaven because the atheist does not acknowledge his existence and worship him. Basically God has an expiration date for forgiveness is what you're saying.

I thought egotism and narcissism were traits of Satan, not God. Funny how that works.

Confession is only used for Catholics, i don't believe in that shit, why tell some dude your sins? just makes no sense, a man cannot absolve your sins no matter how holy he is said to be.

When you were a child, your parents told you to do and not do specific things. Most likely, there was, at least, one day when you disobeyed your parents, just once. I would bet your disobedience made your parents mad.

My point is God gets mad when his children disobey Him just like your parents got made when you disobeyed them.

He is of course a higher being, and i can see why he would get jealous when his creation worships false gods, if i were Him i would of destroyed all of you fuckers already lol

God is a perfect being described by imperfect beings with imperfect languages. It isn't that God "has human emotions" either. God created mankind in His image, not the other way around, so humans, imperfect beings by their own will, have imperfect emotions, but emotions that are images of the perfect emotions that God has. It is a matter of remembering who came first, the Creator God or the created human? Obviously the pottery cannot exist before the potter, so the created human could not exist before the Creator God.

The whole concept of confession is freaking stupid. If you kill someone you shouldn't ask God to forgive you. You need to get down on your fucking knees and gravel and beg to his or her family for forgiveness. God is an envious, lustful, prideful, and wrathful deity, 4 of the 7 vices right there. God killed the first born son of every family in Egypt to punish the pharaoh, one guy, along with other disasters in history. God has committed more atrocities than any fallen angel or demon ever will. He punishes you for not being obedient to him and kissing his ass. That's what you can a tyrant. Christians worship God like the North Koreans worship Kim Jong il. Real or not better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven I say.

Just because we say to ask God for forgiveness don't mean that you can't ask the person affected by your actions for forgiveness, the thing is that sins cannot be washed away by people, you can't tell another person the wash them away, you need God for that.

Envious? The bible has described God as a jealous god, but what is it that he is jealous of? he is a freaking god, what could he be jealous of? he could easily have anything he wanted.
There is sunful jealousy and righteous jealousy, for example if you had a girlfriend, and you see her talking to another man, and you feel resentment and anger, that would be self center possessiveness and unreasonable dominance, it would stem your own insecurity and selfishness, rather than your commitment for her and what is right.
But if you saw a man trying to seduce her, then you have a reason to be righteously jealous.
The point is that jealousy can be good and bad.

Lustful? I never heard anyone make such comment lol wish i knew what makes you say that

Prideful? Proverbs 8:13 - The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.
God hates pride, so i don't understand why you think he is prideful, heck Satan was cast down from heaven because of his pride, and again pride can either be a good thing or a bad thing according to its definition.

Wrathful? God is love, He personifies perfect love, His wrath is motivated by love.
that means that when God is wrathful it is to redeem and restore the individual back to Himself, and to do it, God may have to "pour out His wrath" upon whatever it is that is hindering His purposes in that individual.

He did kill the first born son of every family in Egypt to punish the pharaoh, the Isrealites were not effected by this, only those who followed the pharaoh, following the pharaoh would be opposing God, thus why he took action in such way.

Fallen angels ARE demons lol i think i already went over the "punishing" part, if he were a tyrant he wouldn't have given everyone free will.

You don't "reign" in hell, you simply burn for all eternity.

What is this I don't even...

There's nothing for God to be jealous of, yet he is jealous anyway? You even said with the Pharaoh that he was jealous of people worshiping someone other than Him. The mothers and fathers of these children are basically indoctrinated from birth and taught that the Pharaoh is divine.

You talk about sinful jealousy and righteous jealousy. God's jealousy is not righteous. It is 100% sinful. You said yourself that God has nothing to be jealous of. But He is a jealous God. That can only mean his jealousy is sinful.

I think religion is stupid. I'm like Catholic but I think its fine but I dont like the people that take it too seriously. That bugs me alot.

BlackStigma wrote:

The whole concept of confession is freaking stupid. If you kill someone you shouldn't ask God to forgive you. You need to get down on your fucking knees and gravel and beg to his or her family for forgiveness. God is an envious, lustful, prideful, and wrathful deity, 4 of the 7 vices right there. God killed the first born son of every family in Egypt to punish the pharaoh, one guy, along with other disasters in history. God has committed more atrocities than any fallen angel or demon ever will. He punishes you for not being obedient to him and kissing his ass. That's what you can a tyrant. Christians worship God like the North Koreans worship Kim Jong il. Real or not better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven I say.

I saw a documentary where these people posed as a humanitarian's assistants and went to North Korea to help blind people regain their vision( I think it was something called cataracts).

When the blind regained their vision, they started praising Kim Jong Il for giving them back their vision. It was Kim Jong Il's lack of medical care for his people that caused their blindness.

The whole time I was watching this part, I kept thinking No biggy. How is this any different than religion? At least I know for sure Kim Jong Il is real.

Also someone said that France banned those veil things that some Muslim women wear.

Bravo.

Most Muslim women don't wear veils but I think it's wrong that a religion(or culture) restricts people like that. Just as Christianity says women are inferior. Or the Koran favors censorship" not showing that one guys face".

@Zera

I went through something you've experienced. Becoming depressed because you won't see your family again. Or no after-life.

I started being a devoted Catholic again because it gave me closure.

However, the feeling slowly started fading away and I felt that going to church was a pain in the ass(not to mention I didn't agree on most of the stuff they preached) and it was exhausting being a devoted Catholic.

I want you to know that there is a possibility that you might go through something like this. I started focusing more on my current life, what happens in death doesn't bother me so much anymore.

TRF wrote:

There's nothing for God to be jealous of, yet he is jealous anyway? You even said with the Pharaoh that he was jealous of people worshiping someone other than Him. The mothers and fathers of these children are basically indoctrinated from birth and taught that the Pharaoh is divine.

You talk about sinful jealousy and righteous jealousy. God's jealousy is not righteous. It is 100% sinful. You said yourself that God has nothing to be jealous of. But He is a jealous God. That can only mean his jealousy is sinful.

I meant that He has nothing to be jealous of in a sinful manner, i never said He was jealous of the Pharaoh, he did all that because the Pharaoh wouldn't let His people the Israelites leave.

How is God's jealousy sinful? yes He is a jealous God, He even said it himself in the book of Exodus.

Isaiah 42:8 - I am the LORD, that is My name, I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.

Jealousy is not merely a passing mood with God, it is the essence of His person, He cannot be other than jealous, since He is the highest and greatest being there is.
To have His creation worship a false god would be total bullshit, His jealousy does not grow out of insecurity, anxiety, frustration, covetousness, pride, or spite, as ours usually does, it is the natural and necessary by-product of His absolute sovereignty and infinite holiness.

He could've just done something else that... I don't know... Doesn't kill newborns to get them out of there? He is God.

Exactly. He's jealous without any reason to be. That's SINFUL JEALOUSY. If He is almighty, he should not be jealous. If He is that great, then He should have no need of being jealous

I don't know why you are defending a god that you admit is jealous.

TRF wrote:

Exactly. He's jealous without any reason to be. That's SINFUL JEALOUSY. If He is almighty, he should not be jealous. If He is that great, then He should have no need of being jealous

I don't know why you are defending a god that you admit is jealous.

I thought you'd understand by now, but i will no longer try to explain, to be honest i don't really read the bible except when i'm in church, so i'm not the best person to explain.
I can see how your looking at it, i understand what you mean, you just didn't understand the concept of His jealousy. Maybe you should look it up and get a better understanding of it, that way if you see that i'm wrong you can come back here and quote whatever it is you read.

Its funny how you speak of how He should be, what actions He should take, assuming you know what a perfect being should be like.
Hey maybe you can tell Him He is wrong when you meet Him, and tell him how and what he should be doing instead.



@Sonji

Yeah, the plagues of Egypt, there was 10, the last being the death of the first born, so He did do 9 other things before taking that action.
The Pharaon's arrogance and stubborness lead to it, you don't fuck with a higher being and expect nothing to happen.

TRF wrote:

This is what I'm gathering about God based on your posts, Zera: God is egotistical and self-centered and doesn't actually care about good or evil. He's willing to let a serial killer into heaven so long as he acknowledges his existence, but won't let a kind atheist into heaven because the atheist does not acknowledge his existence and worship him. Basically God has an expiration date for forgiveness is what you're saying.

I thought egotism and narcissism were traits of Satan, not God. Funny how that works.

That's exactly why I gave up religion is because no matter what God was called or how He created the universe He was painted as exactly that...

I'm not saying it's impossible for a serial killer to feel truly sorry for what he's done but don't you think he might have felt that sorrow after his first victim? If he gets caught and spends some time in jail and then figures out what he did was wrong it's more he's upset he was caught and is getting the wrong kind of sex every night than he killed so many people.

:Off Topic:
I saw a case where a man had killed a little girl caught in the crossfire of a gang shoot out, I think I can't remember exactly. The man was all gangsta until the family had to speak and the mother came up and gave a speech. She went on a little and spoke about how if God were here He would forgive him and so that she is doing the same. Tears started running down the dude's cheek. Even the most cold blooded can still have a conscience...

Pizzy3C wrote:

TRF wrote:

This is what I'm gathering about God based on your posts, Zera: God is egotistical and self-centered and doesn't actually care about good or evil. He's willing to let a serial killer into heaven so long as he acknowledges his existence, but won't let a kind atheist into heaven because the atheist does not acknowledge his existence and worship him. Basically God has an expiration date for forgiveness is what you're saying.

I thought egotism and narcissism were traits of Satan, not God. Funny how that works.

That's exactly why I gave up religion is because no matter what God was called or how He created the universe He was painted as exactly that...

I'm not saying it's impossible for a serial killer to feel truly sorry for what he's done but don't you think he might have felt that sorrow after his first victim? If he gets caught and spends some time in jail and then figures out what he did was wrong it's more he's upset he was caught and is getting the wrong kind of sex every night than he killed so many people.

:Off Topic:
I saw a case where a man had killed a little girl caught in the crossfire of a gang shoot out, I think I can't remember exactly. The man was all gangsta until the family had to speak and the mother came up and gave a speech. She went on a little and spoke about how if God were here He would forgive him and so that she is doing the same. Tears started running down the dude's cheek. Even the most cold blooded can still have a conscience...

I don't think so Tim.

lol... ok

Zeratul wrote:

Toxicmaniac wrote:

Zeratul wrote:

Toxicmaniac wrote:

These are very interesting points blixt. But i don't agree with everything. You cannot blame religion for wars. I mean there are alot of wars thanks to religion but war is something thats inside us humans.

However the story of christianity disturbs me. I mean asked once this christian catholic the question. If i am a good person, i don't drink nor smoke nor be disrespectfull towards people yet i choose for not being a christian will i still go to hell. According to every single christian i asked that question they all said yes you will go to hell. And thats the main thing that disturbs me. I am against religion but not against religious people. Thats why i prefer mormonism if i was simple enough to actually believe in something like a religion.

I dont think you understand.Every person sins.It doesnt matter if we are talking about a charity donor or a serial killer.Both sin and therefore need to ask lord jesus christ to be their savior.You can only reach god through Jesus, and if you dont, you will go to hell.Dont get me wrong, god wants people not to sin and do terrible things, but as humans, we ALL sin.If a serial killer asks jesus for forgiveness, then he will be forgiven.If for example an athiest doesnt ask for frogiveness, how will his sins be forgiven?See my point?

So a serial killer and a pedophile just turns into a christian and POOF they go to heaven. An atheist that had a good life and was friendly goes to hell because he chooses not to be a christian. If so then your religion sucks and you should be ashamed for being a slave to that.

EDIT:my point is that you shouldn't put all sins together as the same. Genocide is a sin but its worse then swearing or stealing. yet you get the same punishment. That shows how horrible and misinformed your "god" actually is.

You really should read my post more carefully.

EVERY persons sins.By the time you die, you have probably sinned a billion times.Good person or not.So if you dont ask for forgiveness, those sins will wiegh down on you.If you ask for forgivness, you WILL be forgiven and your sins will be WASHED away.Being a good person doesnt mean you have not sinned, heck, you could be a man whos been praised all his life for being a good person, but even then, he has sinned millions to billions of times.Theses sins ADD up.

Ask yourself this, why would god let you into his house when you never beleived in him or his son, even when he has saved the human race?Why would he?You need to have a realtionship with god(more importantly Jesus) to be let into the house of god(heaven if you dont know).Saying god is horrible and misinformed is very immature and childish.It certainly doesnt give you credibility.One thing I hate about alot of athiests I see on here(alot, not saying all) is that they stick with insults instead of civily debating and respecting both sides.TRF is one of the few I have seen on here who actually seems civil about this all, even when hes hearing that his beleifs arent real(nobody likes being told that their beleifs are false).This is something I respect about TRF.

This is just a personal oppinion about athiesm, but I find it depressing.Atgiest logic is that when you die, you will not see any of you loved ones who have passed away, or anything in general.Its depressing to think that your life was just one of the billions in the world and most likely didnt accomplish anything world affecting.When my parents die, I would be mortified to think I would never see them again.But this is just a personal oppinion of mine, not something I usually would use in a religion debate

Once again it all shows that if you don't follows god way of thinking you will end in eternal suffer. Thats how horrible god is. Thats a fact. God is basicly nothing better then hitler. Everyone sins but that doesn't mean they need to suffer in hell. God is so misinformed about sins that he doesn't even know the important sins. Screw god and screw religion its nothing better then nazism. Basicly your logic is "follow god or you will go to hell" Thats horrible and thats not how real religion should be. Real religion is about respecting your fellow man. God obviously does not respect the creatures he made himself.

Saying god is misinformed is immature? Its not even my logic. Its the logic of the christians themself. Making it a fact if god would actually exists. Don't blame me for your own logic.

im a buddhist, but i dont like being bold, but i get to wear the same hat as ash, so who cares!!!

Well i recently watched The God Delusion with some guy called something dawkins and it made a lot of sense, you can look it up on the internet. It's a documentary!

igame wrote:

I thought you'd understand by now, but i will no longer try to explain, to be honest i don't really read the bible except when i'm in church, so i'm not the best person to explain.
I can see how your looking at it, i understand what you mean, you just didn't understand the concept of His jealousy. Maybe you should look it up and get a better understanding of it, that way if you see that i'm wrong you can come back here and quote whatever it is you read.

Its funny how you speak of how He should be, what actions He should take, assuming you know what a perfect being should be like.
Hey maybe you can tell Him He is wrong when you meet Him, and tell him how and what he should be doing instead.

You're saying God's jealousy is different because he's God. I DON'T know what a perfect being is like, but one would assume that a perfectly good being is one that does not exhibit jealous of any kind. God is also lacking in perfection due to the fact that He NEEDS love. A perfect being wouldn't need anything, would He? Yet He needs love and worship and punishes those that don't give it.

igame wrote:

TRF wrote:

Exactly. He's jealous without any reason to be. That's SINFUL JEALOUSY. If He is almighty, he should not be jealous. If He is that great, then He should have no need of being jealous

I don't know why you are defending a god that you admit is jealous.

I thought you'd understand by now, but i will no longer try to explain, to be honest i don't really read the bible except when i'm in church, so i'm not the best person to explain.
I can see how your looking at it, i understand what you mean, you just didn't understand the concept of His jealousy. Maybe you should look it up and get a better understanding of it, that way if you see that i'm wrong you can come back here and quote whatever it is you read.

Its funny how you speak of how He should be, what actions He should take, assuming you know what a perfect being should be like.
Hey maybe you can tell Him He is wrong when you meet Him, and tell him how and what he should be doing instead.



@Sonji

Yeah, the plagues of Egypt, there was 10, the last being the death of the first born, so He did do 9 other things before taking that action.
The Pharaon's arrogance and stubborness lead to it, you don't fuck with a higher being and expect nothing to happen.

All the plagues were terrible. He could have lead them out in an easier way. HE'S MOTHERFUCKING GOD.

igame, that's incredibly hypocritical. God is described in the Bible. How can a perfect being be described? We do not even know Him....

Like a said before, there is sinful jealousy and righteous jealousy, i even gave an example of the difference between the two, His jealousy is righteous.

The bible describes the church (His people) as being His bride, which is of course a metaphor to compare the union between a husband and a wife with God and the church, thats why He is a jealous God, because he loves us.

God does not NEED love, He IS love, he doesn't need anything from us, he is God, the creator, only he is worthy of worship, if you looked at him for who He is you would see what i mean.

Exodus 34:6 - And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness"

God came to Moses in a way no one had experience before, Moses began to praise Him in that moment, not because he was forced to, not because he thought he should, but because he couldn't help but praise Him.

Anyway i gotta go get some donuts


@ Sonji

God describes himself in some parts of the bible, so yeah i think He would know what He is like.

So, since God is perfect, we should all treat women like shit? He says so, does he not?

Crush babies against hard rocks? (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9)
Child abuse? (Judges 11:29-40)
God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3)

Can't wait to see what comes out of that.