Guns Debate

How? Cars are tools, guns are tools. I can easily use a car to kill someone by running them over.

Well obviously we won't be able to match the government, weapon per weapon. No he isn't. He's basically explaining the second amendment. We always need help in revolutions, didn't France help us for the 1st American Revolution? Then if guns can still be obtained illegally, why take away the right to bear arms from responsible gun users, leaving us defenseless from criminals and possible governmental oppression.

No one ever said the founding fathers were all-knowing, they obviously made mistakes, but it was one of the founding fathers (Ben Franklin) who help started the movement for slavery abolition here in the U.S. and if history taught us anything, it's that a oppressive government will do anything to remain in power.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/24/us/new-york-firefighters-shooting/index.html

The media really has some folk in America running scared. YOU NEED THE GUNS FOR TEH BAD GUYS!!!! All if, buts and maybes ..... a tyrannical government, don't make me laugh.

do not think it cant still happen this day in age stoney.




all arguments are invalid

yonny616 wrote:

How? Cars are tools, guns are tools. I can easily use a car to kill someone by running them over.

Well obviously we won't be able to match the government, weapon per weapon. No he isn't. He's basically explaining the second amendment. We always need help in revolutions, didn't France help us for the 1st American Revolution? Then if guns can still be obtained illegally, why take away the right to bear arms from responsible gun users, leaving us defenseless from criminals and possible governmental oppression.

No one ever said the founding fathers were all-knowing, they obviously made mistakes, but it was one of the founding fathers (Ben Franklin) who help started the movement for slavery abolition here in the U.S. and if history taught us anything, it's that a oppressive government will do anything to remain in power.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin

Almost all deaths caused by vehicles are accidents, meanwhile 40.5% of all gun deaths are homocides and 55.6% of them being suicides. Ben's quote, while amusing, is horrible flawed. We have created laws against drugs, we have created an age of consent, gays aren't allowed to marry, we have banned automatic weapons, we have made many substances, chemicals, and actions illegal, etc. We have already given up many "liberties".

Azazel wrote:

While the odds of the revolutionists are low, having guns makes it easier. Though I will mention that people in the revolution probably aren't stupid, and probably aren't just going to be spamming a tank with machine gun fire...

But now onto my main point, there is a problem with the anti-gun counter argument that "A gun is a weapon, a car is a tool". Aside from arguing that a gun has recreational use in the form of hunting, shooting ranges, and accuracy competitions, the gun is an object, not an agent, but so is your car.

The problem is that you can't say that the gun compels you to murder someone while saying that the car didn't, neither of them are agents with morals or have some weird black magic that "compels" you to do things, it is all in the mind of the true agent, you, or in this case the murderer.

Your statement about recreational uses for guns is not supported by the second amendment. And it's not like we wouldn't be able to do those things without stricter gun laws. Most shooting ranges allow you to rent guns, we could allow people to rent guns for hunting and give them limited ammo too, or they could use crossbows.

Also I remembered something involving shig's statement about armed guards at schools. Columbine DID have armed security guards, and exchanged gunfire, but failed to stop the shooters. Now if they brought knives instead...

But people still die, don't they? I can decide whether to run someone over, just like I can decide whether to shoot a person. They're tools, they can be used to one's purpose. Yet people still get a hold of drugs, gays can marry in some states. We haven't given up anything, most liberties are taken when there's war. NDAA is a perfect example of taking our liberties.

Azazel wrote:

@ Stigma, it still wouldn't matter, again, most guns used in crimes are obtained illegally, placing stricter laws is not going to make the illegal gun dealers go "Aww shoot, looks like we can't sell that anymore." They don't care, remember Prohibition? Alcohol still got through, and it made criminals rich.

Also in the case of Columbine, they acquired the guns illegally, gun control laws were useless there too.

Also when it comes to "stricter gun control" I still don't necessarily have a problem, but it is heavily dependent on what is meant by that and how one plans to bring that about.

The guys the got the guns from bought them LEGALLY though.

shigdig wrote:

do not think it cant still happen this day in age stoney.

The truth is, if it did happen then your Govt could have you taken out without you even lining up a single target in your crosshairs.

For example during the uprising in Libya the rebels were armed with firearms and even explosives but they couldn't do much in the way of stopping the Libyan Air Force or it's mechanised units from bombing the shit out of them. Just before the foreign military intervention in Libya the rebels had been pushed back to their last stronghold of Benghazi and were pretty much defeated until foreign Air Forces and Navies crippled Libya's military.

Considering how much more advanced the U.S. military is compared to Libya's then what chance would the American people really have of overthrowing the Govt in a show of force?

do you actually think our military would turn its guns on its own people?

unlike libya, were most of them were mercenaries, everyone in our military has & cares about their families, friends & communities.


most of our military would defect, bringing in military grade equipment with them


also


lol

shigdig wrote:

do you actually think our military would turn its guns on its own people?

unlike libya, were most of them were mercenaries, everyone in our military has & cares about their families, friends & communities.


most of our military would defect, bringing in military grade equipment with them


also


lol

Based on what you've just said, you have basically proven that you don't need guns to overthrow a corrupt government at all.

As you said the military would side with the people and then the government would have no means to enforce it's power and as a result the government would be overthrown, or alternatively you can vote them out via democratic elections like a developed 1st world nation in the 21st century.

Believe it or not Shig, I don't tend to feel the need to carry a longsword around with me on the streets if i'm perfectly honest. Also why exactly would I need to carry something designed to cause harm when i'm out in public anyway? We're not savages anymore.

However there is nothing stopping me keeping swords at home though because swords are cool as fuck.

there is still a potential for the military to become corrupt. & with the military slowly moving towards unmanned warfare, we will definitely need them in the future.

& guns arent just for overthrowing corrupt governments.

you still have

-self defense
-collecting
-target shooting
-hunting
-pest control
-general fun
-deters invading forces



>Believe it or not Shig, I don't tend to feel the need to carry a longsword around with me on the streets if i'm perfectly honest. Also why exactly would I need to carry something designed to cause harm when i'm out in public anyway?

its not about "need" noir, its about "can". you also missed the point of that picture. the point was that british citizens are not able to carry knives (of a certain length & feature) on their persons for their needs. whether it be a simple utility knife or for self defense, the government should have no right to tell you what you can carry.

>We're not savages anymore.

sure most of you arent. however you do have sandchavmonkeys stabbing & mugging everyone in your citys. not sure if those are considered savages. the point is, evil still exists, & will probably always exist.

Why is it always about sinking down to the 'bad guys' level Shig? It's like a necessity to you. I'd hate to live in your paranoid mind where you constantly feel surrounded by potential threats which requires the need to carry weapons.

I just don't get it mate...

shigdig wrote:

the point was that british citizens are not able to carry knives (of a certain length & feature) on their persons for their needs. the government should have no right to tell you what you can carry.

How stupid can this guy get ? Knife crime would go up.

Mikenuge wrote:

How stupid can this guy get ? Knife crime would go up.

Some of you are talking crime stats. Think this would be insightful.

yonny616 wrote:

Some of you are talking crime stats. Think this would be insightful.

4.7 murder rate in the US, 1.3 murder rate england/whales. The murder rate here is 3.6 times higher.


186 areas in the United States with over 250k people, 32 in the UK. 5.8125 times as many places. But we also have a population 5.023 times higher than the UK. So if they had an equal population they would have 160 metropolitan areas with populations of 250k or greater, not quite as drastic as he makes it out to be. A punch is considered violent crime, I'd rather be punched than killed.

you forgot that punching is also a violent crime here in the US. so it doesn't really matter. the video gives a significant blow to the statistics anti gunners like to use.


try this one on for size

shigdig wrote:

do you actually think our military would turn its guns on its own people?

unlike libya, were most of them were mercenaries, everyone in our military has & cares about their families, friends & communities.


most of our military would defect, bringing in military grade equipment with them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

Oh btw Yonny. That video is total bullshit. This comment on the video sums it up

"You are not comparing like with like WRT violent crime in the UK. Since 1999 'common assault has been included in the stats for violent crime. Common assault is where "... the victim is caused to apprehend the immediate commission of a battery." and battery is defined as "any unlawful touching of the person of another by the aggressor himself, or by a substance put in motion by him" - pushing you is common assault. Over 50% of violent crimes reported result in no injury."

you are also forgetting that we have those ridiculous laws aswell. many people here have been arrested for pushing & other physical contact.


as for your link, that was back then. we are more connected now. also only 4 people died.

Thousandth post spectacular. (it's only taken 2 years)

Piers Morgan vs Alex Jones on Guns, AKA Battle of the Cunts.





Somewhere in Alex Jones incoherent ranting regards how many Chimpanzees can dance on the head of a pin and bringing up 1776, Really? He basically wants Piers Morgan deported for voicing his opposition regards the Second Amendment, but in doing so he is attacking Piers Morgan's right to exercise the First Amendment...

^^ I like how he called him a redcoat at the end

I don't believe the US military would turn on it's own people.

The argument here isn't about taking peoples guns away. That isn't going to solve the problem nor is it practical. But something has to be done about mentally ill people which these people are, using their guns and going into schools, shops and cinemas and letting loose.