Deep Down developers are sexist

Exactly. There is no sexist intent. It's a business, and businesses try to appeal to the majorities. Simple as that. I am sure women are underrepresented in Men's Health magazine too. Women are underrepresented in sports as well. Are you going to try raise awareness of this? It is a non-issue in my eyes. You can acknowledge the difference between men and women without being sexist. Every business known to man looks at genders with black and white. There are things that the majorities like (so cars, sports, gadgets and topless birds for men, fashion, health, weight loss, bare chested men and celebrity gossip for women). Men are still the majority in gaming, especially when it comes to non-casual games so they will put in the elements that primarily men enjoy (war, weapons, vehicles, blood, gore, combat, etc).

What does underrepresented even mean? That there is more of one kind than the other? No point in looking at things at face value. Look at the bigger picture and look at the intent. That's all I Gotta say.

Is Jack even serious?

I can't tell sometimes...

I think it's racist that Lebanese people are under-represented in gaming.

The_Biotic_God wrote:

Saying women are underrepresented in videogames is like saying black people are underrepresented in NASCAR.

You're probably right but no one gives a fuck.

Black people give a fuck that there's a glass ceiling when it comes to making it in NASCAR.

Sawed-Off_Orc wrote:

Exactly. There is no sexist intent. It's a business, and businesses try to appeal to the majorities. Simple as that. I am sure women are underrepresented in Men's Health magazine too. Women are underrepresented in sports as well. Are you going to try raise awareness of this? It is a non-issue in my eyes. You can acknowledge the difference between men and women without being sexist. Every business known to man looks at genders with black and white. There are things that the majorities like (so cars, sports, gadgets and topless birds for men, fashion, health, weight loss, bare chested men and celebrity gossip for women). Men are still the majority in gaming, especially when it comes to non-casual games so they will put in the elements that primarily men enjoy (war, weapons, vehicles, blood, gore, combat, etc).

What does underrepresented even mean? That there is more of one kind than the other? No point in looking at things at face value. Look at the bigger picture and look at the intent. That's all I Gotta say.

The number of women characters in games versus the number of female gamers is not proportionate. I would recommend reading this to see just how many women are gamers, and then I would invite you to consider that against the number of legitimately good, strong, well-rounded female characters in video games (basically that aren't defined by gender stereotypes).

That research by the ESA is questionable though. Not a lot of information have been released about their methodology. We don't know how they arrive to that 45% figure, or what exactly their definition of a "gamer" is.

45% sounds very fishy.

I honestly don't give a fuck if the main character is a women, as long as it's a nice fleshed out character. However if they give me the option to choose like in a RPG, I always pick a man.

2Sugoi2Die wrote:

That research by the ESA is questionable though. Not a lot of information have been released about their methodology. We don't know how they arrive to that 45% figure, or what exactly their definition of a "gamer" is.

tro pip: They count "mobile gamers"

muh candy crush

Shigdig wrote:

2Sugoi2Die wrote:

That research by the ESA is questionable though. Not a lot of information have been released about their methodology. We don't know how they arrive to that 45% figure, or what exactly their definition of a "gamer" is.

tro pip: They count "mobile gamers"

muh candy crush

Sims and Facebook games too, but you don't even need to mention that.

All you need to know, is that the research was done with an agenda to push, namely to make it seem like a large portion of gamers are girls. As such, it is inadmissible,and should be dismissed until proven otherwise (which would be really hard to do, as there's no real way of knowing whether someone is actually a girl or just pretending to be one). You absolutely cannot trust research done with bias. It would be like trusting a feminist (or even misogynist) journal to provide an accurate gender wage gap, or a creationist journal to explain evolution.

If I had to wager a guess, I'd imagine they took a relatively small sample, and whoever said they identify as a gamer or play video games was labeled a gamer. In my experience, 95% of the girls I've met who identified as gamers were either super casual (like, Angry Birds and the occasional Sims), pewdiepie fans, or just played CoD for two hours at their cousin's house.

@jack

Often times both male and female characters are walking stereotypes.

The_Biotic_God wrote:

@jack

Often times both male and female characters are walking stereotypes.

It's farrrrrrrr more common for females though. Not many stereotypes for male characters except the bald marine we always see.

Also, I just wanna make it clear, I don't think these guys are sexist or anything. I'm just saying that when parties complain about a lack of representation in video games (and they're not white heterosexual cisgender males), their complaints are not unwarranted.

As people said. Angry Birds and Candy Crush are not real games. How many dedicated girl gamers do you know in reality? How does their interest in gaming compare to your male friend gamers? Stereotype or not ,generally speaking women are not interested in gaming, and those that do generally are only into casual games or only play the odd game from time to time.

There are probably more games with girl protagonists out there than actual hardcore girl gamers.

Seriously though, what's the problem with stereotypes? The fact is... STEREOTYPES. ARE. BASED. OFF. SOME. PROMINENT. ASPECT. OF. ANY. GROUP. OF. PEOPLE.

So yes while it may not apply to every single person, it is still a prominent aspect. It's like when gay characters in games are portrayed as thuper flamboyant. Do I have an issue with that? Not at all. I find it hilarious is all. Does anyone take offense that the stereotypes of gay people are enforced through a lot of media? No. Because the fact is, those are the gays you notice, so the way people's minds work is that they extrapolate that to the entire community. Nothing wrong with doing that. It's human nature.

And actually generally speaking these women in games are VERY unstereotypical. Girls with guns and swords, taking on men and monsters twice their size? Seriously....

Whereas men, as you said, bald headed marines. That is stereotypical. How often do you have a game where you play a man that knits, is into fashion and dancing (apart from the games Max plays...)

Here's an example of a non-stereotypical female character in a game. Female Shepard in Mass Effect. How many people played as female shepard? 18% http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/07/20/only-18-of-mass-effect-players-play-female/

And even then, a LOT of men choose to play as women (or waifus) and others were curious to see lesbian sex. So don't tell me that we need more female characters or more non-stereotypical characters, since clearly no one gives a fuck. Feminists like to bitch even when they know what they want is nothing they would in their wildest dreams take advantage of.

What you're saying is that MEN don't give a fuck. And just because stereotypes don't offend YOU doesn't mean they don't offend other people.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

What you're saying is that MEN don't give a fuck. And just because stereotypes don't offend YOU doesn't mean they don't offend other people.

No, he's right.

Stereotypes in media exist as a flag, not to be offensive. He already mentioned the flamboyant gay attitude, which is pretty much just an obvious flag that the character is gay. While it's true that not every flamboyant person is gay, or that every gay person is flamboyant. Media doesn't reinforce this, they merely make use of an existing stereotype that society has already placed to provide added attributes to their characters.

If you wanna don white armour here, you won't impress anyone. I'm honestly still not sure whether you're just trolling or not. You seem to really be pushing this, but you're also constantly contradicting yourself.

Angelus the Revenant wrote:

Jack the Spectre wrote:

What you're saying is that MEN don't give a fuck. And just because stereotypes don't offend YOU doesn't mean they don't offend other people.

 
 
No, he's right.  
 
Stereotypes in media exist as a flag, not to be offensive.  He already mentioned the flamboyant gay attitude, which is pretty much just an obvious flag that the character is gay.  While it's true that not every flamboyant person is gay, or that every gay person is flamboyant.  Media doesn't reinforce this, they merely make use of an existing stereotype that society has already placed to provide added attributes to their characters.  
 
If you wanna don white armour here, you won't impress anyone.  I'm honestly still not sure whether you're just trolling or not.  You seem to really be pushing this, but you're also constantly contradicting yourself.

Any time someone makes use of an existing stereotype, they ARE reinforcing that stereotype. And they may not be INTENDED to be offensive, but that doesn't mean that they're not to a lot of people.

I'd like to see where I'm contradicting myself.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

I'm just saying that when parties complain about a lack of representation in video games (and they're not white heterosexual cisgender males), their complaints are not unwarranted.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

What you're saying is that MEN don't give a fuck. And just because stereotypes don't offend YOU doesn't mean they don't offend other people.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

Angelus the Revenant wrote:

Jack the Spectre wrote:

What you're saying is that MEN don't give a fuck. And just because stereotypes don't offend YOU doesn't mean they don't offend other people.

 
 
No, he's right.  
 
Stereotypes in media exist as a flag, not to be offensive.  He already mentioned the flamboyant gay attitude, which is pretty much just an obvious flag that the character is gay.  While it's true that not every flamboyant person is gay, or that every gay person is flamboyant.  Media doesn't reinforce this, they merely make use of an existing stereotype that society has already placed to provide added attributes to their characters.  
 
If you wanna don white armour here, you won't impress anyone.  I'm honestly still not sure whether you're just trolling or not.  You seem to really be pushing this, but you're also constantly contradicting yourself.

Any time someone makes use of an existing stereotype, they ARE reinforcing that stereotype. And they may not be INTENDED to be offensive, but that doesn't mean that they're not to a lot of people.

I'd like to see where I'm contradicting myself.

As a man, by your own logic, it's not your place to judge whether or not female stereotypes are offensive, or whether or not another group is misrepresented or underrepresented in games. If you wanna set that rule (which is total bullshit anyway, you don't need to be in someone's situation to understand and sympathize with it), you must at least abide by it.

Stereotypes are an asset. By giving a character long arms, you can portray them as having a natural advantage in swimming without explicitly stating it. By giving a girl blonde hair and short skirts, you can portray her as airheaded without going into it. By portraying a man as being into BDSM, you can portray them as weird/insane/evil. Hell, you can even antagonize a character by making him/her look corporate. This is good for adding extra dimension to characters without needing to explicitly state it. Naturally, it can also be used to surprise the audience with unexpected or hidden attributes of a character (such as Shinra's contribution to the WRO).

It also needs to be stated that, if, and only if, stereotypes are a problem, they are a universal problem. Your average everyday white cisgendered male is not any less targeted by stereotypes than anyone else. The only difference is that they'd get scolded by society if they brought it up. That being said, some stereotypes are undeniably harmful or offensive, but the majority of the time the only offense taken is caused by the 'victim's' own hypersensitivity. It is absurd to be insulted because a character with your hair or skin colour has certain attributes (unless they are negative attributes which are explicitly said to be caused by the hair/skin colour).

Also, could you please clarify how women are underrepresented in video games? With actual reliable evidence this time?

^ Wow. Summed it up pretty well. Although, I am not quite sure what you are getting at by saying stereotypes are an asset. I agree we need to stereotype in this world in the sense that if you are a magazine aimed at women, you NEED to put in the fashion, the health, the celebrity gossip and all that shit in. Because although it might be a stereotype that women are into those things, that is because the vast majority are. And that's how businesses work. It is based upon generalisations because generalisations represent the majority. Anyone who doesn't fall under the stereotype might a well be considered an exception.

And exactly. This discrimination bullshit is so retarded that it is sad. They say white, cis, straight, middle class males cannot have a say in the subject. Is that not discriminatory?! Probably more discriminatory than someone saying that there is more than enough female characters in games. Because ultimately that person is not disregarding the opinion of a whole group of people.

Sir Angelus the Revenant wrote:

Jack the Spectre wrote:

I'm just saying that when parties complain about a lack of representation in video games (and they're not white heterosexual cisgender males), their complaints are not unwarranted.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

What you're saying is that MEN don't give a fuck. And just because stereotypes don't offend YOU doesn't mean they don't offend other people.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

Angelus the Revenant wrote:

Jack the Spectre wrote:

What you're saying is that MEN don't give a fuck. And just because stereotypes don't offend YOU doesn't mean they don't offend other people.

 
 
No, he's right.  
 
Stereotypes in media exist as a flag, not to be offensive.  He already mentioned the flamboyant gay attitude, which is pretty much just an obvious flag that the character is gay.  While it's true that not every flamboyant person is gay, or that every gay person is flamboyant.  Media doesn't reinforce this, they merely make use of an existing stereotype that society has already placed to provide added attributes to their characters.  
 
If you wanna don white armour here, you won't impress anyone.  I'm honestly still not sure whether you're just trolling or not.  You seem to really be pushing this, but you're also constantly contradicting yourself.

Any time someone makes use of an existing stereotype, they ARE reinforcing that stereotype. And they may not be INTENDED to be offensive, but that doesn't mean that they're not to a lot of people.

I'd like to see where I'm contradicting myself.

 
 
As a man, by your own logic, it's not your place to judge whether or not female stereotypes are offensive, or whether or not another group is misrepresented or underrepresented in games.  If you wanna set that rule (which is total bullshit anyway, you don't need to be in someone's situation to understand and sympathize with it), you must at least abide by it.  
 
Stereotypes are an asset.  By giving a character long arms, you can portray them as having a natural advantage in swimming without explicitly stating it.  By giving a girl blonde hair and short skirts, you can portray her as airheaded without going into it.  By portraying a man as being into BDSM, you can portray them as weird/insane/evil.  Hell, you can even antagonize a character by making him/her look corporate.  This is good for adding extra dimension to characters without needing to explicitly state it.  Naturally, it can also be used to surprise the audience with unexpected or hidden attributes of a character (such as Shinra's contribution to the WRO).  
 
It also needs to be stated that, if, and only if, stereotypes are a problem, they are a universal problem.  Your average everyday white cisgendered male is not any less targeted by stereotypes than anyone else.  The only difference is that they'd get scolded by society if they brought it up.  That being said, some stereotypes are undeniably harmful or offensive, but the majority of the time the only offense taken is caused by the 'victim's' own hypersensitivity.  It is absurd to be insulted because a character with your hair or skin colour has certain attributes (unless they are negative attributes which are explicitly said to be caused by the hair/skin colour).  
 
Also, could you please clarify how women are underrepresented in video games?  With actual reliable evidence this time?

I'M not the one making judgments. I'm seeing what many women have described as offensive stereotypes. And I'm recognizing that things that don't offend me can still be offensive to other people. I'm not only considering MY opinion. And yes, stereotypes exist everywhere. The difference is that I have a hard time feeling bad about stereotypes towards demographics with more privilege, such as whites, males, and heterosexuals.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

I'M not the one making judgments. I'm seeing what many women have described as offensive stereotypes. And I'm recognizing that things that don't offend me can still be offensive to other people. I'm not only considering MY opinion.

 
 
You're judging things as offensive to others, that a judgment.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

And yes, stereotypes exist everywhere. The difference is that I have a hard time feeling bad about stereotypes towards demographics with more privilege, such as whites, males, and heterosexuals.

 
 
You're assuming whites, males, and heterosexuals inherently have more privilege than others.  That is also a judgment (an obviously false one at that).  
 
Two explicit judgments in a post where you state that you make none.  
If you really want to say women and minorities are more subject to stereotypes than males, you'd be denying all the basic stereotypes found in male characters, and the overall sparsity of stereotypes in games.
Your reasoning is off, and your evidence is questionable.  Research with no clearly-stated methodology does not belong in an intelligent discussion.  Neither does your white knightery.
The argument that women are underrepresented in games is also faulty, since professions commonly held by main characters (violent professions) are largely male professions.  It simply would not make sense for 45% of the MCs in FPS or 3PS, when military frontlines are 90% male.  Especially not when you consider that those aren't even the genres most popular amongst female 'gamers.'  
 
Are you being serious, Jack?

Sir Angelus the Revenant wrote:

Jack the Spectre wrote:

I'M not the one making judgments. I'm seeing what many women have described as offensive stereotypes. And I'm recognizing that things that don't offend me can still be offensive to other people. I'm not only considering MY opinion.

 
 
You're judging things as offensive to others, that a judgment.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

And yes, stereotypes exist everywhere. The difference is that I have a hard time feeling bad about stereotypes towards demographics with more privilege, such as whites, males, and heterosexuals.

 
 
You're assuming whites, males, and heterosexuals inherently have more privilege than others.  That is also a judgment (an obviously false one at that).  
 
Two explicit judgments in a post where you state that you make none.  
If you really want to say women and minorities are more subject to stereotypes than males, you'd be denying all the basic stereotypes found in male characters, and the overall sparsity of stereotypes in games.
Your reasoning is off, and your evidence is questionable.  Research with no clearly-stated methodology does not belong in an intelligent discussion.  Neither does your white knightery.
The argument that women are underrepresented in games is also faulty, since professions commonly held by main characters (violent professions) are largely male professions.  It simply would not make sense for 45% of the MCs in FPS or 3PS, when military frontlines are 90% male.  Especially not when you consider that those aren't even the genres most popular amongst female 'gamers.'  
 
Are you being serious, Jack?

No, I'm not making a judgment. Those who are offended are making the claim. I'm merely agreeing with it because what do I know about how they feel as an marginalized demographic? Yes, whites and heterosexuals DO inherently have more privilege. It's not an assumption, it's fact. When whites get stopped and frisked by police, or when consenting heterosexuals adults aren't allowed to get married, then you tell me that the privilege is an assumption. As for your other arguments, that's only explaining WHY females aren't as widely-seen in games. That doesn't mean that it's not a justified critique.

Games like Call of Duty and Battlefield aren't realistic in any aspect so am I supposed to believe that the devs care about military gender demographics? Also, whether the study I posted was dubious or not, I only posted it in response to the notion that male gamers will only wanna play as male characters. I don't believe that notion but clearly the gaming industry does.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

Sir Angelus the Revenant wrote:

Jack the Spectre wrote:

I'M not the one making judgments. I'm seeing what many women have described as offensive stereotypes. And I'm recognizing that things that don't offend me can still be offensive to other people. I'm not only considering MY opinion.

 
 
You're judging things as offensive to others, that a judgment.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

And yes, stereotypes exist everywhere. The difference is that I have a hard time feeling bad about stereotypes towards demographics with more privilege, such as whites, males, and heterosexuals.

 
 
You're assuming whites, males, and heterosexuals inherently have more privilege than others.  That is also a judgment (an obviously false one at that).  
 
Two explicit judgments in a post where you state that you make none.  
If you really want to say women and minorities are more subject to stereotypes than males, you'd be denying all the basic stereotypes found in male characters, and the overall sparsity of stereotypes in games.
Your reasoning is off, and your evidence is questionable.  Research with no clearly-stated methodology does not belong in an intelligent discussion.  Neither does your white knightery.
The argument that women are underrepresented in games is also faulty, since professions commonly held by main characters (violent professions) are largely male professions.  It simply would not make sense for 45% of the MCs in FPS or 3PS, when military frontlines are 90% male.  Especially not when you consider that those aren't even the genres most popular amongst female 'gamers.'  
 
Are you being serious, Jack?

No, I'm not making a judgment. Those who are offended are making the claim. I'm merely agreeing with it because what do I know about how they feel as an marginalized demographic? Yes, whites and heterosexuals DO inherently have more privilege. It's not an assumption, it's fact. When whites get stopped and frisked by police, or when consenting heterosexuals adults aren't allowed to get married, then you tell me that the privilege is an assumption. As for your other arguments, that's only explaining WHY females aren't as widely-seen in games. That doesn't mean that it's not a justified critique.

Games like Call of Duty and Battlefield aren't realistic in any aspect so am I supposed to believe that the devs care about military gender demographics? Also, whether the study I posted was dubious or not, I only posted it in response to the notion that male gamers will only wanna play as male characters. I don't believe that notion but clearly the gaming industry does.

That's still making a judgment. If you wanna say it isn't, then you also have to say that disagreeing isn't. Which it is, obviously. You may not know this about me, Jack, but I am a marginalized 'demographic myself'  8) . I simply care more about fairness and truth than blowing every tiny thing out of proportion.

You were wise not to include women, but you still missed the target. This isn't 1950, 'white privilege' is an overblown exaggeration. Tell me, would you say being left at a disadvantage by diversity requirements, and missing out on the vast majority of scholarships is part of white privilege? What about the social stigma that any racial issue against whites can be brushed off, whereas the casual use of 'nigger' can cause people to lose their shit? It goes without saying that there are areas where being white definitely has advantages, but that is true for every race, and most sexualities (maybe excluding autos and necros).

I'm not sure that's even worthy of a response...

Orc already posted that only 18% of players went with FemShep, so it's likely that most people would rather play from a male perspective (at least when relationships are involved).

Also, it does make it an unjustified critique. Women weren't allowed to fight on the frontlines during World War I, are you saying we should include them when we honour the men? Of course not, that would be absurd, and even disrespectful.
There is nothing wrong with properly representing the scarcity of women in some positions. VANQUISH had a spot-on representation of the different roles for men and women in the military and similar institutions.
If more games were centred around being a nurse, charity worker, teacher, or social worker, then it would definitely be a solid critique. As things are now, however, it isn't. I don't think it makes sense to underrepresent men and overrepresent women. How would that be any better?

White privilege most definitely is not an overblown exaggeration. To even suggest it is shows what kind of a bubble you live in.

Jack the Spectre wrote:

White privilege most definitely is not an overblown exaggeration. To even suggest it is shows what kind of a bubble you live in.

Prove it. Without nitpicking at tiny issues.

Jack, this isn't tumblr.

Sir Angelus the Revenant wrote:

Jack the Spectre wrote:

White privilege most definitely is not an overblown exaggeration. To even suggest it is shows what kind of a bubble you live in.

 
 
Prove it.  Without nitpicking at tiny issues.

I already said that as a white man, you wouldn't be stopped and frisked by police. You wouldn't have eyes watching you as you entered a convenience store. Statistically there's a large wealth disparity between blacks and whites.